Пересказ: Авраам Бург — экс-спикер Кнессета об Израиле, Нетаньяху, войне с Ираном и будущем Ближнего Востока

The government of Benjamin Netanyahu in Israel and its many organized cheerleaders here in the United States have for some time now made the case that all criticism of their government is anti-Semitism. And it is because their government somehow speaks for all Jews globally. Every Jewish person is represented by the Netanyahu government. Therefore, the actions of the Netanyahu government represent every Jew on this planet. And any criticisms of that government are by definition an attack on every Jew. They are anti-Semitism. It's a position that doesn't make any sense, but it's kind of hardened into a consensus in the United States, at least for right now. And if you think about it for a moment, it's not only incorrect, it's a kind of slander against Jews. It is itself a kind of anti-Semitism because, no, not all Jews are represented by Benjamin Netanyahu. And there are many who don't want to be. And that's true even within Israel. Yes, polling consistently shows that most Israelis were in favor of the war. But in Israel, as in all countries, most people don't really know the details of what is happening or why. And that's by design. Israel is a particularly censored place. It's also a particularly small place, fewer than 10 million people. And so its citizens, by and large, live the same way we do, in an information vacuum, where what they know is determined by somebody else for political reasons. All of which makes it very important to do our best to break the spell of this, to hear from people who disagree and hear them explain why.

People who have some credibility and knowledge, not just wackos with weird opinions, but thoughtful people who have a dissenting view. And one of those people is a man called Avram Berg. Berg is in his early 70s. He was born in Israel. He's from a prominent Zionist family, and he himself was a prominent political figure for many years. He was a member of the Knesset. He was speaker of the Knesset, the Israeli parliament, its lawmaking body, its Congress. He was even interim president of Israel at one point. So his opinions may represent the minority of Israeli opinion, but he himself is not a fringe figure. He was at the very center of Israeli politics. Once again, he was the interim president of the country. And in the hours after this current war broke out, he wrote a very strong op-ed in the Israeli press explaining why it was a terrible idea, why it didn't serve Israel's interests. And while the people doing it had no idea why they were doing it. It's a pretty brave thing to say in the middle of a country of war, but he said it because he's a pretty brave guy, agree or disagree. So we thought it would be worthwhile to hear directly from him. Avram Berg from Israel. Here it is. Avram Berg, thank you very much for doing this. I want to ask you about something that's happening right now, apparently. So the president of the United States issued a statement this morning saying that because of ongoing negotiations between the U.S. and Iran, the U.S. would not actually commence with hitting civilian infrastructure, as he promised, and that we're going to try and work something out diplomatically this week. Almost immediately after issuing that statement, there were reports that the Israeli military was hitting civilian infrastructure in Iran. Assuming that's true, what do you make of that? What strategy does that suggest? The same strategy that Israel has for years. No strategy. In Israel, in many, many cases, the compilation of many tactics sometimes assemble into a de facto strategy. But otherwise, nothing. I mean, just look at the last two hours. When was the announcement of the president? The surprising one two hours ago? And you have a bundle of messages coming from all directions. The first and the first and the most important one, hallelujah, they're going to renew the flights so we can go for Passover vacation. That's the immediate reaction of many Israelis, my daughter included.

The second is, oh, Netanyahu knew all together. I mean, Netanyahu is behind the move, as if framing it as his own move. And then, oh, Trump, oh, he is so softy. He is so weak. He doesn't have any resilience. The Iranians, they trick him, etc., etc., etc. Bottom line is nobody has a clue. And in this chaos, the military does what it does the best, simply hammer the nail. But you're suggesting that those tactics, the one we're seeing today and the ones we've seen for the last month, don't add up to a strategy? I listened to you very carefully in the last couple of weeks and the way you try to conceive the Israeli strategy from Netanyahu's 40 years life mission to the greater land of Israel, biblically speaking, or messianic, or scotological one. And I envy you that you really believe that we have something like that. Okay? It doesn't work that way. I mean, in a way, let's start somewhere else. I mean, somebody once told me that what's the difference between an Israeli and an American? Among many differences is that we Israelis, we see an aim, so we aim and we shoot. You Americans, you see an aim, so you take an aim and aim and aim and aim and aim.

You are a lot about process. And we are a lot about, yalla, let's shoot it. And there is a difference here. I have no idea what's the American strategy. I do not know what was the endgame. I have no idea what is the final design the architects of the White House or the Washington really had in mind. I can tell you one thing for sure. Israel wants to remove the Iranian monster because part of it is a real threat and part of it because we pumped it to the size of a monster. So we are fighting, in a way, a real demon and a demon which is our own creation. So what we want to do is we don't like the war. We want it to end. We don't like the missiles. We hate the sirens. We skip nights after nights of sleeping. But once we are into it, let's make sure that it's over. So the real will of many Israelis is, let's get over with the Iranians. The problem is the relative size. Israel is a small country. Iran is a large country. How exactly do Israelis expect that's going to happen? Size-wise and number-wise, we are, let's say, 10 million in a good day, and there are 100 million in an average day. In a way, many Israelis do not really measure it this way. Many Israelis believe that we are a kind of a superpower. There were a couple of weeks ago, I was in a high school somewhere, and I promoted my good, old, no-good, Nick, peace agenda, okay? And one of the students stood up and said, Avram, can I ask you a question? I said, yes, please do. And he said, why won't we do to them what we did to them in Afghanistan? And I said, I know Gaza, I know Lebanon, I know Syria, I know Egypt. What did we do to whom in Afghanistan? I mean, we haven't been there yet. And I asked him, where are you from originally? And he said, I was born in Moscow. And I said to myself, ha-ha, he thinks like a Russian. And I asked him, tell me, how many Jews are there in the world? Now, Tucker, with no hesitation, he said, ah, 54.3. Okay? And how many Israelis are we? He said, something like 20 million. In the eyes of many Israelis, we're not just superpower technologically and superpower economically. In a regional hegemon politically, we have the numbers, the numbers in economy, the numbers in support, the numbers in demography, without really calculating what are the real numbers. So when you ask the Israelis how, simply do it. And what will the end victory look like from an Israeli perspective? How will Israelis know they've won? I don't have a good answer for this question. At a sense that, in many cases, the American or the Western way of thinking is usually a kind of a win-win. I mean, we end the war and we make sure that we left at the other side somebody to talk with. I mean, yes, it is ridiculous that the American president is saying, I would like to talk with somebody, but there is nobody there because I killed him. Okay, this is your own oxymoron. This is a paradox that I take it you intellectually, you know how to square this circle. Okay, but from the Israeli point of view, in many, many cases, philosophically, no, psychologically, we do not live in a win-win situation. We live in a zero-sum game. If there is a competition, if there is a race, if there is a war, if there is a battle, if there is a conflict that ends up that Packer and Avrum profits, something is wrong with me. I want to win alone. I want you to be dead. I want to humiliate you. I want to cancel you, whomever you are my enemy. And when you look at this philosophy, you understand where comes the political rhetoric that every adversary, never mind who is he, minor or major, by the end of the day, he is a Hitler. And every decade we have a new Adolf Hitler. And since everybody is the archenemy, there is only one solution to this one enemy. And therefore, when you ask me what is the Israeli political echelon, forget about the people in the street. The political echelon approach toward any kind of resolution, whatever it is, it's not a dialogist one. Now, it is not just about Netanyahu, which is a case by himself. When you look at what is allegedly called opposition in Israel, they simply compete with the government who is more aggressive, who is more as if resilient, who has more so-called creative solution to the enemy we have to demolish and obliterate. And this is why you hardly find in Israel any reconciliatory politics. So we're still in the middle of Lent, inching closer and closer to Holy Week, the days leading up to Easter, when we are called to walk alongside Jesus through his suffering, his death, and then finally, gratefully, his resurrection. And there's never been a better time to commit to more prayer. If that sounds worth pursuing, we sincerely recommend downloading the Hallow app, which we talk about every morning at breakfast in my house.

Hallow offers thousands of prayers, meditations, music choices to help draw you deeper into the passion and listen for God's voice. Jesus died for every person, no exceptions. This month, especially, remember his sacrifice. Download Hallow today to connect with the Lord on a daily basis in a way that you will not forget. We are completely hooked in my house. No kidding at all. Literally, every day we talk about it. Lots of apps are time wasters. Hallow is the opposite. Get three months free at Hallow.com slash Tucker. We sincerely, passionately recommend it. Where does this attitude come from? When I was in school, in high school, every other week, the rabbi, I was in a religious high school, in a religious academy, yeshiva. So the rabbi, the rabbi used to call my mom, my father was busy, so he used to call my mom and said, you have a very, very talented boy, child. He is like an egg. The more I boil him, the more I boil him, the harder he becomes. Now, in a way, our life experience as Jews in the last couple of thousands of years and Israelis in the last couple of decades boiled us into a very, very hard, stiff neck egg. On the other hand, we never trusted hands offered to us. And on the other hand, we never experienced to extend our own hands. I'll give you two examples. The rhetorics of Israel since 1948 is a rhetorics of survival, of existential threats, of permanent, imminent war. Out of nowhere, came President Saadat to Israel. I remember myself as a young soldier at 73 Wall, at the other side of the Suez Canal, in a foxhole in the desert. In the middle of the night, fuck a frightened 18 years old boy, and I was listening to the then iPhone transistor. Do you remember the transistor with the rusty voice? Oh, yeah. And I heard President Saadat in the middle of the night say, I'm ready to sacrifice a million and a half Egyptian soldiers in order to redeem the Sinan Peninsula. And I said, holy, holy God, a million and a half Egyptian soldiers against me, Avraham Boog, a Jew boy from Jerusalem? I was frightened to death. And then four years later, he came to Jerusalem, and I'm running. Now I'm a released power trooper officer, young one, running after his convoy and chant, no more war, no more bloodshed. It was redemption, it was eschatological, it was messianic. It was the first time Israel was offered a different syntax. From a syntax of war to a grammar of peace. We never grew up into the challenge of Saadat. Never. We never walked all the way with the Egyptians, with the Palestinians, as was part of the original Camp David framework. And we rejected it. Even when a couple of years later, Oslo, Deus ex machina, out of nowhere, Oslo came to the world. As problematic as now we know de facto that Oslo was at the time, when it was launched, it was an eruption of hope. It was again an offer for a different language. We didn't grow into it. So Israel does not have a vocabulary or state of mind to talk peace. Now, there is a different layer that I'm not at all sure we are. It's too early in the conversation between us. But this is the transformation from eternal Judaism that was a religion of powerlessness. And if I would like to use Watzlaw Havel terminology, we had the power of powerlessness. And we transformed into Israelis with the power of the Almighty. And we feel much more threatened. Well, there's a paradox. So as Israel has become more objectively powerful, it has felt more threatened, more endangered. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It does seem like if you were to, just as an outsider, it does seem like Israel is more threatened. And it does seem like if it had continued on the trajectory from the Sadat talks or from Oslo in the way that you suggest, it would be less threatened. I think objectively that's probably true. Maybe at the same time we have opportunities and the threats are better threats, so to say. Let's look at numbers just for a second. When I was a student, I mean, at elementary school, a pupil, we were told that in 48, the year in which the state of Israel was born, seven Arab armies invaded the just-born state of Israel. So 48, it was seven versus one. In 67, 19 years later, it was only three out of the seven, Jordan, Egypt, and Syria. Six years later, in 73, it was only two out of the three, only Syria and Egypt. Ever since, as broken as it is and as chilly as it is, with Egypt, we have a peace agreement. And Syria, in a very good day, is a dysfunctioning threat. So you can, and the Palestinian issue that was not there in 48, the way it is today, was born along the road. So you can say, listen, in eight decades, 48 to 26, from seven armies to half a problem, which is the Palestinian one, this is an evolution. This is a positive progress. And in a way it is. And this is before we count in the potential of Saudi Arabia, the potential of the Emirates, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. On the other hand, two elements emerged as well. The first is Israel, that at least in two, three stages in its life, was fully accepted among the family of nations. 48, and it's 48, and it's euphoria, 67, and the eruption of redemptive feelings all over the world, maybe.

And the atrocities of October 7th, 23. Three times that Israel, in conflict time, this is beside Camp David, beside Oslo, beside other positive peace agreements, but in a conflict situation, that Israel was well-received and well-accepted in the world. And then we must ask ourselves, how was it wasted? How comes that two years ago, three years ago, Israel, three years ago, in 23, Israel was so well sympathized with all over the world and now so despised? So the threat of being rejected, of being a world pariah, maybe it's not a military one, but it's a deeper one. It's an existential one. And the other is assuming that the Iranians would have had a nuclear capability that very soon will lead to a chain reaction, chain of reactions, that others will have nuclear weapons in the Middle East without using the weapons. But a Middle East with mass destruction weapons is a different scale of a threat for many, but for Israel especially. So I will say, yes, we have better relationship with many. And the situation is not 48, is not 67, is not even 23. But the threats are not gone.

They were transformed and different and require different strategy and philosophy and value system to address. Inflation makes credit card statements particularly scary. You work 40, 50 hours a week just to buy groceries and gas, things you used to be able to afford without thinking that much about it. Then the banks charge you 20% interest. If the system is designed to keep you underwater, it's working. But there's another option. Our friends at American Financing are doing something the big banks despise. They are helping people. Mortgage rates in the fives, supporting the American dream of homeownership. And they're showing homeowners how to take their hard-earned equity to wipe out high-interest debt. Now, we're against debt in general, but in this economy, most people have no choice at all. So don't go bankrupt and slaving yourself to a lender. Average savings are about $800 a month, and it takes only 10 minutes to talk to a salary-based mortgage consultant. No upfront fees or obligation to see how much you can save. Give American Financing a call. 800-685-5696. That's 1-800-685-5696. Or visit AmericanFinancing.net slash Tucker. America's home for home loans. How did this war start? How did? Sorry? This current war, this month-old war against Iran, there's debate in the United States about how it started. Whether or not the United States was pursuing its own interest, defending itself from Iran, or whether President Trump followed the lead of Prime Minister Netanyahu. If we go back to your initial introduction or your immediate question you bombarded me with, without any introduction, okay, you said, we have no clue what's going on. So we do not know, we don't yet have information, neither about the launching of the campaign, neither nor about the continuation of it. So in a world with no information, in a realm of no information between me and you, we can look at the gestalt, we can look at the frameworks of what happened, the details Tetris-like will fall in. And I will say, the immediate trigger was an awful one. Ah, we had an opportunity. Since when you declare a war because there is an opportunity? I mean, that's the worst opportunistic reason I've ever heard in my life. My father was a very wise man, used to say about one of his colleagues, that's a man of principles. Principle number one, opportunism. And I say, what kind of a principle is this one to declare such a world war? In a volatile reality that China is out there waiting for something and Russia and Ukraine is ambushing us, and now you have to have another front. So the immediate trigger that we had an opportunity, I will say, whatever was the opportunity, using it was an unjust, immoral trigger. The larger frame is Netanyahu life mission. I take it that it requires more than one Tucker Carlson and more than two hours between you and me, or five hours, or as long as we can tolerate each other, in order to understand this figure. He's a very, very interesting individual and a very, very significant leader of a state in this time. Significant, I hope it's natural enough, because I don't have much of sympathy to his leadership. However, he's there. He's significant. Where his life mission is coming from, And I will say that it has two drivers. One is very Jewish, and one is very conservative. The very Jewish is, in a way, like my mom.

My mom believed that the world is divided 50-50. 50% Jews, and 50% who hate the Jews. Which means she believed we are something like 3.5 billion people. We the Jews, okay? And the rest of you, whomever you are, do not like us. So this notion that the entire world is against us, and you cannot trust nobody but ourselves, is embedded in the Jewish conscience ever since. Maybe even since the Bible, since biblical time. But for sure later on, and the exilic period instilled it into our psyche. So we do not trust, and therefore we're not being trusted in a way. There is a dialogue of not trusting here. So Netanyahu is part of this classic Jewish paranoia. The entire world is against us. At the same time, he is a very kind of a 70s, 80s, 90s conservative and your hobby neocon. To say, we are the children of light, and that all of those offsprings of darkness, and our life mission is to push them back. Our life mission is to fight them. It's never compromise, never realize if there is somebody out there that we can communicate with. Maybe they are not a monolithic group of people.

Maybe like us, they are divided, they are dissected, there is a diversion, there is a richness of expressions in ideologies and values and religious manifestation. No, no, no, no. They are all of them. And when you listen to Netanyahu, Huntington through Netanyahu, he is the leader of our civilization of light versus whomever is the civilization of darkness. So he is built in classic Jewish paranoia that many Jews have. Some of it rightly so, some of it molded into it. And part of it is part of a worldview that you know better than I do because you explore it almost a couple of times a week. And this is the mistrusting Christian West who does not trust anybody but itself. And when you look at some of their attitude towards Europe itself, does not even trust itself. So where this war started, it started with an opportunity and a frame of mind. How do you think Prime Minister Netanyahu seized President Trump? He's afraid of him because he's unexpected. I don't know if the term whimsical is a right one, but he's unexpected. I believe the more I monitor the actions of the president, that there is a kind of a worldview behind it. Not always articulated the jury, but de facto I can realize some things there. So first, Netanyahu is fearful of the unexpected. The second, Netanyahu is so talented that he took the disadvantage and made it his prime advantage how to puppeteer the president. So I would say he has a dual feeling, a fear and a know-how how to use this fear for his advantage. Now, look at the patron. How many American presidents saw Israeli prime ministers as their elder brothers? like Clinton and Rabin, George W. Bush and Ehud Olmert, maybe not elder brother, but an experienced one, Golda Mayer and Nixon. So there is there a kind of older, younger brother relationship between Israeli prime ministers and American presidents that Netanyahu, with his vast experience and malicious intentions, knows how to use also this leverage point in order to promote his agenda with this American president. How do you think he did it? What were the leverage points? I heard you with this, how you call him, the prophet, the Canadian prophet this weekend? Yes! Okay. It's interesting. I'll tell you something very funny in a second, if I may. Please.

He came with four theories how it happened. I'll tell you something very, very simple. It's a chemistry between two charmers. Listen, I cannot stand you. But you're a nice person. So I talk with you. Okay? I mean, you know, you know my ideology. I'll take that as a half compliment. Yes. Of course. I mean, no, I mean, it's a one and a half. And you know my position and despite or in spite my positions, we're talking. Yes. So there is something there at the very personal chemistry that simply worked. And Netanyahu is a brilliant campaigner. Listen, when you walk out of the room with Netanyahu, check your sleeves whether you have your hands into them still. Maybe he stole your hands out of your sleeves. This is how talented he is. He picked his pocket and so did Trump to him. They used each other. I don't understand. I mean, I understand half of that explanation, but I don't understand what President Trump or the United States could conceivably gain from this. It seems like a hundred percent loss to me.

it's more a question to you as an American than a question to me as a far away subject of the American empire or the American influence zone. Okay? Yes. I'm sure that there is a profit here. Now, is the profit, for example, a place in history as much as many authoritarian leaders, since they do not trust the people to commemorate them after they pass away, so they commemorate themselves while still alive, make sure that there are libraries on them and cultural centers and bridges and airports and you name it, okay? Still, history plays a role. and when you think of Trump coming from Manhattan with so many Jewish associations around him, he's familiar to the Jewish talk of New York, he's familiar to the rhetorics of Jews and their association and affiliation with Israel. he understands that many of them sees Israel under a permanent threat of extinction. Saving Israel before the base, before the Christian Zionists, saving Israel is historically speaking, is almost prophetic. Listen to his rhetorics after Gaza. I put an end to 3,000 years of a conflict. I don't know when the counting began. It's still counting. Okay? Nonetheless, it's a state of mind.

It's politics and history mixed. And Netanyahu as a child, as a son of an historian, understands this, how to play this card. So you believe it's likely Netanyahu said to Trump, you will be recorded by history as the man who saved the Jews. This is on the positive side, and on the negative side is you do not want to be recorded as the one that under his God and in his shift, something so awful like the second holocaust happened to the Jews. There are two sides to this moon, the dark one and the one a bit more illuminated. Publicly, you speak about the leading side of the moon. I mean, in dark rooms, you speak about the dark side. We are under permanent threat. Save us. You said a minute ago that what the Israeli government has done in Gaza has permanently, or at least for the moment, made Israel into a pariah state internationally. How is Gaza seen within Israel? In order to touch such a volatile issue, I need a very brief introduction to offer you my own framing of this last couple of years. Whatever Israel did to the Palestinians since day one, hundred years ago, all the wrongdoings, the transfer, the expel, the demolition of four, five hundred communities, the Nakba, the tragedy, the catastrophe of the Palestinians, whatever we done to them, all wrongdoings does not justify the first step and the first step towards atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. I agree.

None. Right. And whatever Hamas did on October 7th to the Israelis, brutal, awful crimes against humanity in the bodies of my friends and my colleagues and my fellow citizens, whatever Hamas did to us does not justify the moral crimes and maybe even crimes against humanity that Israel exercises in Gaza ever since. You have two crime scenes, do not annihilate each other, do not balance each other, do not justify each other. You have to deal with Hamas crimes and with the Israeli crimes simultaneously as difficult as it is and sometimes as paradoxically as it is. Now, this is how I see it. Most of Israelis are not in my place. Most of Israelis, regardless of October 7th, I mean, even much before October 7th, do not really know where Gaza is. Yes, it might be five minutes away from a doorstep, might be 40 minutes drive from Tel Aviv, but it's beyond the mountains of darkness. I don't know where is it. I haven't been there ever.

When you look at the Israeli media up until October 7th and 10 times more after October 7th, you never see Gazian people. You see tunnels, you see cement, you see rockets, you see demolitions, you see Hamas troops running here and there. You never see the individual Gazian people as if there are no people there. And the report is never about the humanitarian side of it. The report is always about insurgences, terrorists, etc. Gaza, as they awfully expressed by my President Herzog, said, in Gaza there are no innocent people. God forbids to live in such a situation that you do not believe there are no innocent people on the other side. Even Abraham the patriarch believed that in Sodom and Gomorrah there are innocent people and God negotiated with him. but we are better than God and we are worse than Abraham which simply write off any innocence in Gaza and ever since it did not improve. So in a way Gaza it's not a blind spot. Blind spot is it's too technical. Gaza is the moral abyss in which Israel collapsed into. I find it so striking what you just said because Israel is such an international country. I mean I don't know what percentage of the population was born somewhere else and people are always in and out of Israel I mean it's hardly in it's not central Africa it's right in the Mediterranean it's very international as I said so it's interesting that many Israelis don't have a sense of what's happening just right at their southern border what do they think when they read about it there's so much international controversy about it when you pull up the internet someone's getting mad about Gaza how do Israelis respond to that you put here two topics the first is media report yes media and the second one is where is the existential reality of Israelis whom are we when she asks you the economist editor the right to exist and you exploded what is that right to exist okay and I said to myself Tucker don't don't don't don't don't get mad at her the question is a different one the right to exist from the point of view of being a Jew not from being part of the international community is Israel justified according to the norms it tells itself it is the only democracy in the Middle East the most moral army in the world et cetera et cetera there it implodes now let me try to answer your question first about the international reports most of us listen to Hebrew media only and read Hebrew media only and the Hebrew media filters most of the non Hebrew expressions we do not speak English I mean even listen to me with my Arnold Schwarzenegger accent okay I mean we don't speak English we don't speak German and if we read something about it they're all anti-Semites and the weaponizing of anti-Semitism into a kind of a thick filter that enables us to reject any kind of legitimate criticism is part of the system here so media wise we hardly hear the international situation hardly hear it the question of what does that mean to us I will say as follows up until the second world war 90% of the Jews in the world were Christian born Jews what we call Ashkenazi and 10% were born in the Muslim sphere what we call Sfaradim so it was 90% Christian world Jews and 10% Muslim world Jews today in Israel it is 50-50 which means the old perception that Israel is an offspring of the west of the Christendom demographically doesn't work because at least half of the Jewish Israelis not to talk about the 20% of Palestinians with Israeli idea but from the 80% Jews 50% were born or offsprings of Muslim world Jewry which do not share the same legacy and the same heritage and the same tradition that Jews shared with you which is the evolution of the west I'll take it a step further yes many of us were born in so many other places our parents or grandparents but most of us were born here and here is a very strange place on one hand we're not Europe anymore because we got disconnected and on the other hand we never got connected to the region so we are kind of a stand-alone island totally disconnected from the region refusing to get connected when normalization was offered to us only two three years ago it was a threat we never dwelled into the strategy what should be our relationship with the region so much so that in a way we resemble a lot the kingdom of Jerusalem of the crusades foreigners coming from the outside circling ourselves with a kind of self-siege wars and never integrate it is not right because there were interaction between the regional Muslims at the time and the Christians at the time but nonetheless the kingdom as a political entity never wanted to be part of the region after 200 years it expired the state of Israel born out of the ashes of the Holocaust for sure but earlier on was born out of the nation state idea of getting secular Europe with its solutions to its national groupings came to the Middle East which is not part of the nation state thinking didn't go through the processes of secularization and revolutions the industrial revolution the French revolution the American revolution the British revolution never went through them in order to get where we are today and therefore didn't find any hooks to get connected so we lost our western hinterland and we never seeded enough in order to grow to be part of the local fauna so we are isolated I think many I don't know what they think now but for most of my life in the US many Americans regarded Israel as a kind of European ish country that was always my opinion some of them felt that Israel was almost part of the United States not in a sinister way but we've got so much in common 51st state Golda Mayer I think was from Milwaukee Wisconsin she grew up in Milwaukee right okay as they used to say at the time the woman who made Milwaukee famous smoke Chesterfield cigarettes American cigarettes I mean it felt very American what is the view would you say of most Israelis now toward the United States we love it we admire it we want to be to move there and we think you are so childish and naive why because this is what you are okay I mean I'm not sure I would disagree with you at all but what about American strikes Israelis as childish and naive Israelis let's begin with a smile because it's a heavy stuff okay you know why we Israelis do not make love in the street because then everybody will come and give you advisors here everybody is a prime minister everybody is a diplomat everybody is a strategist everybody is Tucker Carlson everybody is everything everybody is Napoleon we know better and when we think about first begin with the West in general okay how don't you understand that immigration brings you down that you compromise your own very existence how don't you understand that the Muslim tidal wave of immigration is going to compromise your very entity leave aside I don't think that many Israelis understand the exchange theology okay I'm not at all sure that exchange theory but speaking generally speaking you ask Israelis how many Muslims you think there are in Europe hmm something between 30 to 50 percent which is far away from the number yes so what do you think about America what do you think in America oh wow wow what do you know Michigan in the last elections just show us how big is the Muslim minority Obama Hussein Obama so you don't understand your own reality so to say this is the kind of the experience everybody gives advices Israeli reality at the daily the second is it's very very difficult for us very difficult for us to understand the fairness of the game if you ask me what does that mean to be an American I can give you five different answers one of them is since you have a constitution and everybody is equal in front of the constitution or supposed to be equal in front of the constitution there is a furnace in the game you cannot trick me you cannot look down at me you cannot abuse me I cannot abuse you on the other hand we don't understand it we Israelis we live in a reality that constitution is a threat equality to all citizens not just Jews and Arabs but for the sake of it orthodox and non-orthodox is a threat to the very existence of the state so on one hand as if we have shared value foundations but when you try to translate these values into practical reality here the gap grows we cannot accept we cannot accept the American wall of separation between church and state impossible for us as much as the definition of Jewish and democratic is hollow in a good day and deceiving in an average day it's a stupid definition but we believe it's possible and we cannot accept that you are not Christian and democratic you're democratic first only democracy too weak not for us and then I'll take it to maybe to the last stage okay we don't care we hardly care unfortunately and it pains me about American jury when Netanyahu said a couple of years ago they're democrats they don't support my position anyway let's go with the Christian Zionist that's our political backbone they're the best friends we have and giving up on American jury beside many other things that we don't respect them when it comes to the law of return when it comes to accepting the reform and conservative movement religious expression which is totally rejected by the religious establishment in Israel et cetera et cetera when we look at America we see two things and we don't accept both on one hand we see as if this is the total definer the absolute definer of the democratic movement the wokes all democrats are wokes and on the other hand all the right wingers are hating Jews like Tucker Carlson that's it so in between what's in it for us okay Silicon Valley technology economy profit but not the values not anymore is this a religious war from the Israeli perspective or from the orthodox Israeli perspective this one in with Iran now a bit never defined this way officially I would say it's the second me personally who observed the situation and tried to intellectualize it in order to comprehend I will say it's the second stage of religious war it worked since up until October 7th the conflict between us and Palestinians which is bloody and malicious and awful especially awful because it could have been resolved so many times before was a political conflict between two national communities so political conflicts and national conflicts as difficult as it is we know what to do with that October 7th was the first round of the full scale religious war Jewish fundamentalism at the Israeli government and Muslim fundamentalism at the Hamas government and the philosophy of Hamas and the ideology of the Israeli government and some of its leading ministers was out in the open with rabbis and chaplains in the army and ministers and members of Knesset expressing it loud and clear so October 7th was first chapter of the deterioration of the political conflict into a religious one this one in Iran which is three years later which historically speaking is maybe the same period it is so fast I mean what is it three years in human history it's nothing it's not even a coma yet when you live it day in and day out it's difficult it's heavy it's sirens it's kids not sleeping it's sleepless nights and fear but it's a different one the war in Iran now from my point of view is the first religious fundamentalist war world war Jewish fundamentalism Christian fundamentalism and Jewish fundamentalism at the battle field it feels that way to me unfortunately I'm sorry it feels that way to me watching this that's exactly what it feels like and the problem of you and me as much as I take it on few many other things we are other sides of the of the other side of the street on something like that which is such an existential problem to our ideologies and our identities and our values never mind where are you in the other disagreements between us we are watching we are just watching we didn't yet come forward and offered an alternative a comprehensive attractive spiritual and political ideological and maybe even eschatological alternative that fights them i ask myself with with shame i cannot tell you how much we didn't we didn't we didn't yet open the chapter of what jewish settlers are doing in the occupied territories in the west bank daily crimes against innocent palestinians conducted by wild savage settlers ignored by the army and by police and supported by members of knesset and members of the cabinet daily i'm full of shame but the utmost one is where the heck are the rabbis where are the spiritual leaders maybe they're not coming because they are the insiders because they're behind it because they support it because they promote it because it promotes their messianic end of the day eschatological philosophy and this is as I said earlier where classical Judaism implodes into Israel holiness how important is the rebuilding of the temple to the people you're describing to the cabinet ministers to the rabbis who are not speaking up against what's happening in the occupied territories is there actually an effort to do that do you believe for the people in the street not the rabbis not the people engaged not those you ask questions about to the masses it's a non-issue yeah I figured that it is as if a kind of a I mean yeah Disney world in Orlando okay yeah I mean do there whatever you like I mean just just give us a break okay so for the masses they're not there on the other hand since 67 at least five I'm not at all sure that not more at least five attempts to remove the mosques from the temple mount were done by these groupings since 67 which means that when you come to address this question it is not so much about the numbers who support the removal of the temples and the removal of the mosques and the rebuilt of the temples it is about the dedication and the readiness and the fanaticism of those who are ready to act let me say I'm embarrassed I did not know there had been five attempts to get rid of the dome of the rock and al-Aqsa so these were plots to blow them up is that what happened yeah yeah huh yeah what happened to the perpetrators to the plotters the most famous one is the 80s what is called the Jewish underground a group of settlers from the same educational system that I grew up that I was I was brought up on some of them are friends and friends of families and people from the same school I went etc I mean pretty like me people yes who were caught sentenced sent to jail and got a political deal couple of months or two years later and few of them if not many of them became prominent Israeli figures one of the most important newspaper editor in Israel Makor Ishon advisors to ministers members of Knesset you name it well received back into society not excommunicated and not excluded not secluded not excluded so much so that today sits in jail for life Igor Amir who assassinated the prime minister and there are constant voices even within the Knesset even within the government and the Netanyahu's coalition calling for his release so as for your question what is the support the support in the public is very small the dedication of the few is very intensive what would happen if the Alexa complex were destroyed Tucker let's move on that's how I feel but I don't live there you do so you see that as a profound change in world history if that were to happen I'm not at all sure that we are not we are not already into this profound change yes like this war with Iran combined with October 7th combined with other things we're in the middle of a transformation of world order to what next order or this order neither you nor me know and maybe we don't share the same vision of what should it be but we're in the middle of a transformation here now this issue of the temple of the temple the issue of the mosques will be morally speaking a coin with two sides on the Israeli side if and when this will happen God forbid that will be the end of justification of the existence of the state of Israel and if this God forbid will happen I'm afraid it will trigger the masses all over the Muslim world that this might topple down few regimes and bring to power different powers and different regimes that the entire world order the way we knew it will not be recognized by us anymore it is much more volatile and explosive than a nuke yes that is certainly my read on it I don't think you're overstating it of course no one can predict the future but that seems very likely do you think my other sense again I'll allow you to have the more definitive word on it but is that if there was ever a time it could happen it's right now in the middle of this war the the only the hope that the attention of the prime minister is given to that also yes that's that's the only hope I have I trust him my trust is very minimal and this isn't a very good day I hope that he understands if something like that happens in his shift it's bigger than him yes and I hope he pays attention to it I feel the same way about him but I agree with you I don't see why he would want this here we go to something else Netanyahu is a well-read person he is not an an alphabet he reads books he understands he knows he has a vision you can agree with him you can disagree with him but at least he's an interesting partner he knows what he's talking about okay what happens to him in the last couple of years is that he does not behave politically according to his wisdom he behaves according to his political survival instinct rather than according to his ideology and philosophy so between political survival or conservative right-wing decent right-wing conservatism if he was the right-wing conservative I would say I will oppose you but I respect you yes the minute it's the personal survival instinct only I don't accept it and I don't respect it and I suspect it and the fact that in his cabinet there are so many influential ministers who promote this agenda and create daily provocation around the mosques troubles me I take you a step further how many times did you in your analysis say listen there are so many fanatics in politics etc etc but the Israeli army is a moderate one they're usually the sound of reason okay this is the perception we have but pay attention most of the generals and the high high up officers of today are people who were brought up educated shaped and molded at the previous times of Israel under Rabin under Perez under Menachem Begin even under Ariel Sharon in a much more responsible country the people who climb up now the ladder the military ladder a different kind of people who were brought up under the chaotic problematic value system of Netanyahu in the settlements educated with this kind of messianic mission to use the army as a tool to accelerate redemption and a day will come that you will see a chief of staff with this kind of agenda you already have the head of the secret service coming from these circles to to trust the Israeli army to be the moderator for good might be a mistake pay attention things have changed so fast there I mean from an outsider's perspective it's just a very different country from what it was even 15 years ago that's how it feels to me it is right and in order to understand the shift our says follows when was your first time here in the region 25 years ago make me 2000 yeah exactly okay 2000 was the end of the tale of secular Israel Israel of 48 was as Bernie Sanders call it socialist but let's call it European wise social and democratic a very young democracy but with a prospect to move on for a better more developed democracy and very secular Israel of today is democracy in deficit in a good day harsh capitalist to the level of libertarian anarchy almost sometimes and very religious so Israel of 2026 is not Israel of 48 not Israel of 67 and not Israel of 2000s different society different leadership different different rhetorics ethos and pathos and the real struggle today between the political forces yes it's very personal my personality your personality my leader your leader okay that's granted we have it in every political system imagine politics with no ego so boring okay god forbid so thank god we have some ego left but the undercurrent is the warming cold war between religion and politics between the Jewish and the democratic that's the real deep struggle will Israel by the end of the road will be Jewish religious that their religion is defined by this kind of people or will it be back a kind of a liberal democracy and let's not argue now what is the definition of this liberal democracy but much more secular in thinking and therefore speaks with the language of reason and this is the real political struggle in Israel today I'm hopeful by the way as difficult as it is the pendulum will come back but we have to understand what the fight is all about do you think given Israel's moves since this war in the last month right both in West Bank and in Lebanon do you think that Israel will have different borders by the end of it will control more territory by the end of this as much as there are enough people who buy into your suspicion that we want Israel from the Euphrates to the Nile this is actually your question right how real is the greater Israel project it's just hard to know it looks real but I don't know no I just wanted to show you that I listen to you you see okay this was just I'm just quoting the Torah that's it yeah okay so as much as there are these elements which are the same elements that were behind the killing of Yitzhak Rabin yes and the underground to remove the mosques and those who harass the Palestinians now etc etc etc etc I do not believe that in any future that both of us will be part of it Israel will have any legal and legitimate borders but the 48 49 67 borders there will be so many attempts there will be so many provocations there will be so many manipulations by all of these people it will never work so much so that I also all heartedly believe that some were by the end of the process most of the settlements and the settlers from the West Bank will be removed as well yeah that's not the trend that we see from this vantage why would you predict that most of Israelis want to have good life as much as Netanyahu came with his prophetic vision of super Sparta we still prefer Athens okay I mean because of this because of the souvlaki because of the halloumi because of whatever we prefer everyone prefers Athens to Sparta of course you see so as much as the democracy in Athens was a little bit how shall we put it not updated yes okay the original version was a little bit limited but yet the vision of Athens as the place of aesthetics and philosophy and wisdom and reason and democracy the seeds of western democracy most Israelis would like to have good life we want to live we want our children to live I cannot tell you how much I cried when my kids went to the army I was standing there when the bus took them and I remembered my mom telling me kiddo when you grow up there will be peace and you will not have to serve in the army and I did have to serve in the army and then I said the same thing to my kids and between my wife and myself and my kids we have more than 30 years of service in the family now we have grandchildren and one day soon they will have to serve because we are citizens of the place we are partners to their responsibility and I know that the day in which my grandchildren generation will stand up and say we are ready to defend the legitimate Israel but we're not ready to sacrifice our life or to sacrifice the life of others on the altar of this craziness this day is close that's very reassuring I'm sorry that's a very reassuring thing to hear I'll give you a moment that you were there with me in that moment when October 7 erupted like a volcano covered the entire city of Naples so to say the Israeli Naples we were all under the dust what was the first thing that came back to the table to state solution as much as Trump said I made it I mean I solved it and Netanyahu like Houdini made it disappear it came back to the table and it is still there and you cannot ignore it and you should not ignore it and therefore the pressure from within and from the outside and the reality and the options a hope will be offered to all of us after this round with Iran will be over there will be new options some of them awful some of them promising eventually Israelis will say we are ready to serve the needed but not the fantasies are you concerned that Israel if this continues at the current pace will be hit hard enough by Iran that it responds with nuclear weapons the first time I thought about it was when you started to raise the issue in your programs and I had a feeling that you are really troubled by it very and I had a feeling that not you are troubled that Israel will be nuked or will nuke them because the effect on so many other fronts and the nuclear race that will start right afterwards will put all of us in a real threat so I fully I started to think about it I'm not so much troubled by Israel nuking them because Israel has two strategies since we as Jews we could never compromise with one opinion so we said let's have two opinions so we have one conventional army that is ordered to win never mind what and then we have the non-conventional capability which is ordered to win no matter what and I believe that every threat yet in the region we can address with conventional power and setting yet if there should be a way out of it you promote in the last couple of weeks you promote the issue of all the sides who sit together around the same table talk respectfully to each other with no patronizing and with no arrogance just talk to each other I say something as well yes of course I'm a dialogist I talk with you okay we're talking I want the outcome of this war to me to be a Middle East clean of weapons of mass destruction to all Israel denied bombs included now it is clear that Iran must have North Korean strategy in order to protect itself it didn't start with us it started with the Iraqis then they said listen the only way we can protect ourselves is to have this kind of supra capability so in order for Iran not to have it and therefore Saudi not to run after them and then Egypt to say what about us and then the Emiratis or the Qataris buying something from Pakistan and then then then we should make sure that by the end of this negotiation whatever we give to whom because this negotiation you give you take you negotiate the outcome should be a process a Middle East clean of weapons of mass destruction which will be imposed on Israel as well who could impose that President Trump overnight it's hard for me I mean again as someone who would love to see would be grateful to see what you just described I want that it's hard to see Netanyahu ever accepting that under any circumstances that's right that's right it's difficult it's not easy but as my wise father that was mentioned once already in this program used to say he doesn't believe in sticks and carrots he believes in carrots and carrots and then he said even a carrot can cause some pain sometimes I mean there are ways to do it there ways to secure it there ways to guarantee it it opens a whole new window so to say about can you trust America today what the Gulf states that both of us are curious about them yes okay something is happening there what will they say if America will walk away from this conflict and leave them alone at the mouth of the Iranian lion or the Israeli lion not good not good what Japan will say what South Korea will say what India will say and and and and and Taiwan Singapore all of these important places if you cannot trust America so it's self reliance self reliance means an immediate ornament race which is bad so in order to prevent the world to go into a new race like that and this is the entire world and we know who will be the profiters of it all of those who export death and weapons of hatred to all over the world in order not to make these industries industries of hatred and industries of suspicion and industries of death in order not to make them profitable the only way to come positively out of this conflict is to begin here at home here is the first region which is clean and we move on and these are the guarantees we Americans are giving you that nothing bad will happen to you if a threat like this one day will stand in front of you so America in order to do anything is not just about the oil prices which is important by itself I mean if you live in the suburbs for so many years and you want to drive to your pharmacy or to your supermarket the price is crucial I don't I consider it very seriously as a daily existential issue for the American citizen but if you want the world to be pacified and calmer you need to restore not the trust in the markets but the trust in America again we strongly agree on that what would happen what would happen if no American leader was able to restore that trust or the United States couldn't afford to remain a stabilizing force globally because it's expensive what would happen to the world the simple answer is I've no clue the little bit more augmented one is somebody else will walk somebody else will grow into this responsibility will it be China that with all the problems that Chinese are having they're about two things they're very much about continuous stability at home and abroad and they hardly ever initiate a war they play games but they don't declare wars the way we declare wars every now and then so maybe China will grow into it maybe there will be a different world coalition of interested parties who would like to see something like that end and this is a very ambitious end what about Europe I saw your vice president there and then I saw your secretary of state there one with a little bit more abrasive style the other one a little bit more subtle one saying the same thing you're up you're done and I say I'm not at all sure the good old continent was done so many times and rediscovered itself and re can you say rebirthed itself re yes how do you how do you reproduced itself so many times in history and I have a feeling that this mechanism of renewal which is the cradle of the western civilization western civilization is European first and only then the rest of the Christian Anglo Saxon etc etc etc and I have the feeling that Europe has the power to renew itself and to grow up into it and remember that Israel and Turkey and Iran and Saudi Arabia are the next door neighbors it's not far away from Florida place no it's not and I take Mark Twain wisdom who said that every now and then America declares a war in order for Americans to study geography I understand okay did he really say that that's pretty good this is what I read okay and if he did not let's give it to him he deserves it you know in the world you either you say either Bernard Cho or Gaucho Marx or Oscar Wilde or Mark Twain right we have a limited palette yes great one of them did it okay so and I say for Europe it is much more natural at what sense when you look at the Middle East the Middle East of today with all of its fragility and all of its volatile forces is the leftover of two poisonous European fruits the Holocaust and colonialism and I'm not at all sure that Europe went yet through the process to internalize it to grow up to the challenge what do we do about it do we have any kind of historic responsibility reality and with America walking away this America walking away from NATO and walking away from so many things maybe it's time for Europe to recalculate its position in history so so I have to end and I should have done this at the beginning but I just want to make sure that you get credit for this I want to read a line that you wrote immediately after the beginning of this war and you wrote it in the Israeli press because it's just so prescient and you're describing your prime minister Netanyahu and our president Trump you said neither he nor Trump has the faintest idea why they want what they want to happen here after day one you saw that at the very beginning that this was a war without a strategic goal and I think that's proven true how were you here's my question how were you treated when you said that what was the response to that and what has your life been like in Israel over the last month because I don't think you're in the majority in your opinions in I left the Knesset voluntarily some 20 years ago and ever since I dedicated most of my life to think to write to read to lecture to teach to offer alternative narrative to Israel easy it is not and with each and every book of mine and each and every article of mine in a way I'm pushed further away from the mainstream this this this is not just about the death wishes and the threats and the pushbacks in the streets it's not about that it's about the loneliness of having an opinion yet I'm a Jew what does that mean being a Jew is many things one of them is to be dedicated to the culture of disagreement when you look at the Talmud that's the most important Jewish writing creation that's the oral Torah this is the development of the written scripture it's thousands of pages so boring Tucker you cannot imagine my goat ate your tomato your cucumber heated my wife I mean what kind of but it's not about goats it's not about cucumbers it's not about this Jews for centuries so did I so did my father so did my grandfather studied the Talmud because the Talmud documents obsessively not just the decision and the verdict of the majority but the position of the minority with the assumption that a day will come that the majority will wake up and realize how wrong they were we have already ready made the strategy prepared by the minority to become the new majority philosophy so being in a minority and a Jew it's not a problem so were the prophets so were the rabbis so were the intellectuals so what it's a responsibility and I see my role in life and it's not alone you never do things like this alone is to offer first thinking which is different than the parameters of the public discourse and to be courageous enough and expressive enough for people to know there is an address out there there is somebody out there who thought about it and he's not afraid so shouldn't we be afraid look at my t-shirt okay I went abroad a couple of months ago I'm going with that I said listen every ultra orthodox has his outfit that you recognize like an Amish okay yes every settler has his or her outfit which is an M16 rifle and something else okay I have my uniform so I'm in the airport comes to me a guy and says Borg don't you think it's about time to change your shirt why it's stinking he said no no peace is stinking okay and of course for me it was an opening for a deliberation for a discussion so yes many times I'm alone and yes many times I'm even lonely but I'm full of hope and I offer hope for others and when my daughter asked me daddy how do you feel she asked me the talker's question how do you feel said what's the problem dear I'm in a majority I agree with myself at home we all think the same so it's a majority all my friends think like me it's a majority politically I support people like me so we are the majority the fact that they have more numbers that's marginal bottom line is sometimes Tucker being a Jew means being an alternative well I like your alternative and this conversation has really been a blessing for me so thank you very much for taking the time to do it and I hope a lot of people see this thank you very much for your time thank you and giving me the opportunity thank you very much thank you thank you We'll see you next time.